Chris: Peace y’all, welcome to the CARMA Chronicles podcast where we speak to the nation's leading healing center practitioners. I'm your host, Chris Nguon. And today we are continuing our Art Based Healing Center and Engagement miniseries with a very special guest yo; Miss Stacie Amon Yeldell. And I'm so excited to get into this conversation yo, with so many different reasons. Because Stacie really embodies what it is to be a artist in so many ways, including the beautiful journey that comes with artistry, right, that we're going to get into. So as part of this miniseries, which is in collaboration with the County of Arts and Culture, as part of the LA County Arts Ed Collective, we can't wait to get into this conversation y’all, coming up now.

Chris: Stacie, it is such a pleasure. And we were just in space not too long ago, but it is great to be in space with you again. How you doing today?

Stacie: I'm doing fabulous. And it is so wonderful to be here with you all today. I'm so excited to talk about my favorite things which is art, culture…

Chris: Yeah.

Stacie: journey. Just you know, it's my favorite. So thank you so much for having me.

Chris: Oh, it's our pleasure. And we love to have conversations with artists all around the country. And especially Flourish Agendas, our work down in LA County with artists for the last two or three years as part of this initiative, we have been able to have the pleasure to work with artists such as Stacie. So I can't wait to get into this conversation. You know, and for your listeners to learn more about Stacie, her story, her artistry, which is dope yo, and all of those things. Also really want to quickly introduce Miss Amanda Green, who is also part of the Flourish staff who's also here with us today. Amanda what’s up, what’s up?

Amanda: What’s up family? How's it going, everybody? Stacie, so good to see your face again and be in space with you.

Chris: Yeah.

Stacie: Hey, Amanda.

Amanda: Hello. And also special shout out, today's Chris's birthday.

Stacie: Oh, my God. Happy birthday, Chris.

Chris: Oh, look at that. Look, Amanda has the special zoom background. But yes…

Stacie: Yeah…

Chris: thank you so much yo.

Stacie: I just saw that.

Chris: Thank you so much, thank you, Amanda. I try to keep that under wraps. But thank you, team. And as I say every year it's a blessing to see another, give thanks to the ancestors, man, for sure for sure, right? But yeah. Stacie, you know, there's so many ways we can start by talking about your artistry. But I'll just pass the mic to you. If you were to give a little bit of a intro about who you are, what you do, why you do art, the reasons why you do art, and why art is important. All of those questions, just those small questions, you know? But just a little bit about yourself. I'll just pass the mic to you, and then we will bow back from here.

Stacie: Wonderful. Yes. Thank you so much again, I so happy to be here. And you know, I think the last time you asked me this question was on that panel a few weeks ago. And I remember my first instinct is like the why of art is it's an impulse, right? Like I, I create because I have to, I create because if I don't create, I will die. So dramatic, right? But in a way it's very much true. Um and it's been such a journey to give myself-the permission to create.

Chris: Right.

Stacie: And I'm still on that journey. I have not arrived. This is not going to be a talk where I'm like; ‘So, this is what it's like on the mountaintop’. No, no, no, I'm still very much on the journey of giving myself-permission to create authentically without having to do some side hustle or some side thing, you know? I that it's enough to just be an artist and, and to create, you know. So that's very much a journey that I'm still on. Um and in terms of who I am, I mean, I'm what they call a probably a multi hyphenate. And…

Chris: Oh.

Stacie: you know, I've heard that before. So I am a vocalist, I would say I'm a songwriter first because my first primary created self-expression as a child was that of a lyricist and a rapper. So that was the first thing I did. Creative you know, starting at like age 8 and um and then I picked up the cello. So classical musician and a rapper at the same time if you can imagine that um in my in my earlier youth. And then probably around my 20s I, I discovered my voice as a vocalist. So I became a vocalist in my early 20s. And that kind of merged me into the singer songwriter world where I learned how to combine both my vocals and my songwriting ability. And I created, you know, projects from that. And then I became a music therapist, uh which was a risk…

Chris: Yeah.

Stacie: in complete response to the creative injury that I incurred in the music industry at such a young age.

Chris: Mhm.

Stacie: And, and then from there, uh you know, it just became a, a wild journey. Well, it was already a wild journey, but it definitely continue to be a journey. And so now I can also say that I'm the best-selling author.

Chris: Right now?

Stacie: because I’ve written, you know, wrote in a workbook this year, and um and have a couple of more on the way. So, yes, so vocalist, best-selling author, music psychotherapist, speaker, facilitator.

Chris: See what I mean, yo?

Stacie: That's um that's kind of how I present myself-these days.

Chris: Yeah. We, we, we know what type of guests we bringing on to the CARMA Chronicles yo. There's some special people and Stacie is Wonder Woman. I would say, Stacie, you are ahead of the curve. Because a cellist who's also a hip hop artist, rapper, I'm seeing a lot of rappers now collaborate with orchestras having concerts with orchestras, now, you feel me? I was just on YouTube the other day. I won't play it here because then they'll block the whole episode because it’s copyright. But Rick Ross saw uh had a partnership with the orchestra through I think Red Bull was a sponsor or something. But I was like, wow, look at this, taking it back. So I will say you were a trendsetter, Stacie. But yeah, a lot of folks don't know, I don't know how much of this you want to get into, but we can start there maybe. You were actually a signed artist, music artist at a very, very young age as well. So the talent there, especially, you know, specialty was there. Um tell us a little bit about that. What was it like being in a muted music industry at such a young age as you were in?

Stacie: Yeah, it was…

Chris: Different, huh?

Stacie: such a such a cool time. Because…

Chris: Yeah.

Stacie: you know, I was definitely one of those kids that was bullied and felt like an outsider. And I didn't understand my sensitivity, I didn't understand my creativity, um I really didn't understand any of those things. And it manifested in, you know, the way it oftentimes does, which is this kind of feeling like you're on the outside of, of things. So, you know, my parents were so supportive from the very beginning. And they saw something and they, you know, the first thing they I would say they did was stood in line at a Magnet School Creative Arts Program um and they were the ones the ones that slept overnight to get me in um to this, you know, sixth grade to sixth to, I guess, eighth grade. So it was like a junior high school. And that was, you know, them putting me in an arts school. And that's when it started to kind of create this context for me of like; ‘Oh, wait, I'm actually a creative and that's part of, you know, who I am. And that's part of what's going on here with, you know, having all of these, you know, weird social interactions, and that feeling like I couldn’t conform, I could never be in a clique’. You know, I was never and my parents also encouraged me not to go with the crowd; particularly my mom who was…

Chris: Right.

Stacie: like used to put posters all over the room, like; ‘Dare to be different’, and write these little messages on my lunch bag, you know? So, I had the such an immense support from my parents to be who I you know, whoever it was I was trying to become. And then by the time I got to high school, which was also had an arts component, um I found a Creative Collective, and they were called Multi Talented Productions (MTP), and we were dancers, singers, rappers, producers. And that was when everything started to make sense. I mean…

Chris: Right.

Stacie: it literally started to line up. I met a guy who um looked at my raps which at that time, were written in paragraphs. Um and he said; ‘Wait a minute here, you know, you can divide these up creating. You know, make some stances and’, you know, and then I started to find my flow. And then he played a track and I was like; ‘Oh, let me try a hip hop flow on it over this hip hop track’. Because before then I was really just listening and mimicking. So I would like listen to MC Light…

Chris: Right.

Stacie: listen to Salt and Pepper. And you know, write the transcribe the lyrics, and just rapped over it. So it was more of that but then I was writing my own rhymes at the same time in junior high, but it wasn't until I got into that collective that it all began to kind of shake out like; ‘Okay, now I've got a flow. Now I've got this, you know, this this vibe, this energy’. And um and it was so much fun. I mean, we did shows all over the county, and believe it or not, to show how like good we were and how serious we were, we all had record contracts at some point.

Chris: What?

Stacie: Yeah. Like I got a contract, you know, another guy who was a rapper got a contract, there were 2 singing groups that got contracts…

Chris: Yeah.

Stacie: a women's group, girls group and a boys group, they got contracts. And, you know, they went through the mill of the music industry, and nothing really, you know, kind of came of it; they got spit out like I did. But the fact that we all got contracts, you know, we were we were serious, you know, we weren't playing around, right? So, you know, so it was amazing to be a part of a creative collective that made it all so normal for me. It was a normal experience, it didn't feel like I was doing anything out of the ordinary. Um I was one of those kids that always knew that I was going to be famous, like…

Chris: Yeah.

Stacie: I was eight years old, and we had a pool party at my house, and I literally wrote a guest list with Big Daddy Kane, and MC Light, like I put all these rappers on this.

Chris: Oh you were for real.

Stacie: Oh, I didn't see any…

Chris: Yeah.

Stacie: any separation between me and them…

Chris: Yeah.

Stacie: you know? And it was just this feeling. And then I met, you know, I met a few of them and, you know, at a very young age, and then, you know, um and then eventually, in college, I started working in the music industry, and was always surrounded by them. So there was always this part of me that felt like, you know, I was going to be, you know, at the table with these people, you know?

Chris: That’s right.

Stacie: And I can tell you that that was something that proved to be very painful for me, um later in life. Because I got very fused to this idea, you know, my young self, got very attached to this idea of being on stage, being famous, being a part of that um that outcome being the only outcome. So that, so spoiler alert, that didn't work out for me too well, you know, later in life. But in, in the moment, at the time, it was happening, it was very exciting. And it was very validating um to be a part of a creative collective to find my voice in such a way, and to have really empowering experiences. I mean, one one that stands out was that I haven't talked about in a long time is, you know, there used to be a show called Teen Summon on BET.

Chris: Yeah.

Stacie: And um Teen Summit would have a yearly talent show, and you would just send in your VHS tapes. And so, you know, they would look through, of course, hundreds of 1000s of these tapes, and so they selected me, I was a rapper, and they selected um this other girl group that eventually got signed with Michael Bivins. And we had the same manager. And the other group that was on that show was Escape. And they got discovered on that show. So…

Chris: Wow.

Stacie: yeah. It was this Teen Summon talent show and we, we came on with original songs, you know, and Jermaine Dupri saw the episode and signed Escape, he tried to sign me, you know, and that's kind of was my first experience with the shadiness of the business. Because I never really understood what happened to that deal. I didn't know whatever…

Chris: Right.

Stacie: manager I had, at the time, kind of stood in the way of it. But then the next thing I know, there was The Brat. And that was my first experience of like, this, this creative injury of like, oh, shit. So for years, I walked around, like; ‘Oh, I'm supposed to be The Brat’. You know, like, I'm sorry, I carry that for like, 10 years probably, you know…

Chris: Yeah.

Stacie: this idea that. So, very early on, you know, and that was 16 years old, you know…

Chris: Yeah.

Stacie: when this happened. So that was kind of like my first loss in the music industry. Um and so there was there lies that that intersection that most of us as artists can relate to, right, which is this impulse, this joy, this love to create, and…

Chris: Yeah.

Stacie: and when that clashes with the, the business, right?

Chris: Mhm.

Stacie: And with the you know, the, the, the and you know, industry rule number 4080, you know, record company people are shady.

Chris: Yeah.

Stacie: You know? Like what happens when those two things collide? And what does that do um to you as an artist?

Chris: Yeah. And how is that, you know, this is a loaded question. First of all, thank you for sharing that Stacie. I think that's so powerful in our reflection. And how has that really impacted how you've moved since then? Right. You were talking about recovery. Now, you're an amazing music therapist. Can imagine your time in the music industry has greatly influenced why you're a music therapist now and amazing woman, you know, as you reflect on that time, and it sounds like you're able to speak on it as a learning now, um in relation to maybe you when you were in it, um what was that journey like from transitioning out of the music industry? And in some ways, maybe, maybe I'm making it worse, but kind of re-finding yourself and who Stacie is? Yeah.

Stacie: Oh, yeah. I mean it’s, it’s, it's been excruciating.

Chris: Yeah.

Stacie: Absolutely excruciating. I'm not gonna even lie because, again, I was so young to have that experience, and then for that to create this type of fusion. Um so it was a very difficult thing to uh create a new identity, because I would have to first have to understand that I was over identified with this other identity. And I didn't know that and, and it and it went on because then, you know, I tried to run my first instinct was to run from it, right? So I was like; ‘Okay, I'm gonna go work in the music business’. So by the time I got to college, I had you know gotten the music industry job, I was working at Atlantic Records, I was working at Sony, I was then going to college in Atlanta; it was the most exciting time to be in Atlanta, [inaudible 15:51] just open, it was 94.

Chris: Wow, that is THE time.

Stacie: Oh, I was in Atlanta…

Chris: My goodness.

Stacie: the best time of my life.

Chris: Yeah.

Stacie: I went to a black college. And I was all up in the music scene, you know?

Chris: Yeah.

Stacie: And it was a so this was my first time doing something that I learned later, was a trauma response, which is to create a parallel field, a parallel route to…

Chris: Right.

Stacie: the thing I really love to do.

Chris: Right.

Stacie: So I had created this parallel to say; ‘Okay, I won't get hurt if I'm on this side of music’, right? Because when I was an artist, that's painful. And, you know, it took me years to unpack that, I wouldn't find that out until many, many years later. So the industry, working in the business, and then I kept that, you know, kind of shtick going for all the way into getting me a job out of college, where I moved to New York to work for Atlantic Records. And I was a full blown assistant to the product manager and marketing and, and then, you know, the Wheel of Fortune started turning again. And you know, because I couldn't not not create. I mean, that's kind of where I get this idea of, like, it's not possible, because even then, I was still writing songs.

Chris: Right.

Stacie: I had found out that I could write songs for other artists, I was like; ‘Oh, I'll just work in the music business, and I'll just try and get songs placed’. Like, so in my process of doing that, um I met someone who connected me to Eric Sermon, who was a major producer.

Chris: Yeah.

Stacie: And I started demoing, you know, songs uh to be placed with other artists, with Eric. And the first time I was in the studio with Eric, he was like; ‘Yo, you need to be a singer, like your tone, like, what are you doing, you know’? And I had always wanted to be a singer, but I had this deep voice and, you know, didn't really think that I maybe could, you know, I didn't sound the way the singers that I like, sounded. I was a Tina Marie fan. So I was like, I thought I had to be the soaring soprano in order to…

Chris: That’s right.

Stacie: you know, to, to sing. And, um, so it was really him that was like, you need to you need to take this seriously. So demoing of my own songs that I was writing turned into singing my own songs that I was writing, which turned into, you know, a Death Squad, you know, situation where I was presented with a couple of contracts, one from Def Jam South when, um, when uh Scarface was President, that brief moment.

Chris: Mhm.

Stacie: And, you know, and so that was really, when I would say the wave crested.

Chris: Mhm.

Stacie: Because this was the moment where it was returning, where I was, like; ‘Oh, I'm finally back in my destiny. You know, it's come back to me, it's been given back to me’. But I guess I hadn't really learned the lesson, right? Because then it got kind of…

Chris: Yeah.

Stacie: it kind of blew up again. So similar to what happened when I was 16 happened again. And um…

Chris: Yeah.

Stacie: and that deal disintegrated uh by no real fault of my own, so to speak. It was just kind of this…

Chris: Right.

Stacie: comedy of errors without the comedy. Um and then it just, you know, it kind of exploded. Now, when that happened, I was already living in New York and, and I didn't have any tools, I didn't have anything. So that would probably be the moment I would say where it, it spiraled me into this type of ‘dark night of the soul’ um that lasted uh probably about 7 years?

Chris: Wow.

Stacie: You know, and, and it was right up to, like 27, 28…

Chris: Uh huh.

Stacie: right around my Saturn Return, which is, as we know, there's the 27 Club of people who passed away during that time.

Chris: Mhm.

Stacie: And um and so I barely made it through that, like I, I almost lost my life from that time because of the darkness and very much to what like what happens to child actors. If you ever wonder what happens to child actors, right?

Chris: Yeah.

Stacie: It's this phenomenon. You're just so attached to this one thing that you just don't know how to grow out of it, you don't know how to be anybody, anything else.

Chris: Yeah.

Stacie: And I just did not have any other worthiness um…

Chris: Yeah.

Stacie: around being anything else other than this recording artist. So the fact that it didn't happen, again, was just too…

Chris: My goodness.

Stacie: much…

Chris: Too much.

Stacie: for me to bear. It was it hit.

Chris: Yeah.

Stacie: Listen, if I started at 16 then now we're talking about almost 15 years…

Chris: Yeah.

Stacie: right, of even I was only 24, you know?

Chris: Yeah.

Stacie: 25, so, so excruciating would be the word. Um because I had to go very deep down into the darkness…

Chris: Yeah.

Stacie: in order to hear uh you know, a cry, you know, to say; ‘Okay, I've got to, I've got to find, I've got to find a way to love something else’…

Chris: Yeah.

Stacie: was really what I had to realize. And then just by serendipitous I, you know, synchronistic experience, I've heard about music therapy, I was like; ‘What's that’? Um I had already gone to engineering school for two years, because…

Chris: Mhm.

Stacie: I was like, I gotta find a way to get some autonomy, I gotta find a way to stop letting the music business break my heart. So, maybe I'll just record my own songs and have my own studio. And so, but the pain was still there and I was still in that darkness. Um and then the program ended and I and I had to find something else. And so I discovered music therapy, the program at NYU is a master's program.

Chris: Yep.

Stacie: And um and it was just completely different than anything. Even my audition process. They…

Chris: Mhm.

Stacie: they didn't want me to, you know, play a, a classical piece, you know? Because I was still a cellist somewhere in there. So they were like; ‘No, we want to, we want you to play what indifferent feels like’.

Chris: Woo.

Stacie: I was like; ‘What’? That's what I said.

Chris: Woo.

Stacie: I was like; ‘Wait, what is this’?

Chris: Uh huh.

Stacie: You know?

Chris: Uh huh.

Stacie: And it was just captivating to me. And I, because I had…

Chris: Yeah.

Stacie: always wanted to know why music makes me feel the way I do.

Chris: Mhm.

Stacie: That was my life's question; ‘Why does music make me feel the way I do?’ And I remember asking my acoustics teacher in my engineering class that he was like; ‘Well, you're going to have to ask a music therapist’. I was like; ‘A what? What's a music therapist’?

Chris: Yeah.

Stacie: And that's and that’s kind of how it began. So very long answer; excruciating to make that switch. Um but it definitely began with walking into the doors of NYU to that master's program, and beginning to heal the inner child within me that had been so pulverized in the business.

Chris: Yeah. Wow. Stacie, thank you so much for sharing that. And I imagine folks who are listening who are part in the music industry can relate to that in some way, at least, right? Because I hear a lot of stories that are somewhat similar in that way. So thank you so much for sharing it here. You know…

Stacie: My pleasure.

Chris: I think it's, it's really powerful in so many ways, right? So yeah, and I think one of the things that you said that I'm really resonating with now is you asked the question to yourself; ‘Why does music make me feel the way I do’? Do you know the answer to that now?

Stacie: That's a good question. Well, I've definitely become a student of that question.

Chris: Mhm.

Stacie: You know, I've definitely built my life around that…

Chris: Yeah.

Stacie: versus, you know, the unconscious pursuit of something.

Chris: Yeah.

Stacie: And, and, and that's come with a lot of, you know, inner work that I still continue to do. I think that the, the real big question that also accompanied that, that I had to ask was, you know; ‘Why am I so hell bent you know, on being famous’?

Chris: Yeah.

Stacie: Like, what is that about?

Chris: Yeah.

Stacie: Right? And, and I was able to unpack that with a therapist in my grad program. Um and I always like to kind of share this piece of it, because this also goes back to the child star phenomenon, the ones who don't make it. You know, I was kind of predisposed or kind of set up in a way to really take to performance and take to um the large copious amounts of adoration you get from one stage…

Chris: Mhm.

Stacie: you know? And, and so part of my story is that my dad was an alcoholic.

Chris: Mhm.

Stacie: And so there was this kind of um dynamic that comes from you are an adult child of an alcoholic.

Chris: Yeah.

Stacie: And so there was this setup for me to really perform for love, right? Out, it was it was very transactional; I'll heal you if you love me.

Chris: Mhm.

Stacie: A lot of times, people who have addict parents become fixers and healers and savers, so I was one of those. So I was predisposed to kind of; ‘Okay, I have to perform, I have to do something in order to be validated’. So that was part of the, the lesson for me was like; ‘No, you have to find a way to self-validate’, right,

Chris: Yeah.

Stacie: to, to be able to not. So it makes sense of why when it was taken away from me, or when it seemed like this elusive thing that I couldn't ever kind of…

Chris: Yeah.

Stacie: keep my hands around, um that it just destroyed my sense of self-because it was like my whole sense of self-was fused with this; ‘I have to be famous in order to feel validated’.

Chris: Yeah.

Stacie: And that was part of what I got a chance to heal, you know, in the music therapy world. So when that happened, and I began to get that healing around that, then I was able to reconnect with that musician part of me…

Chris: Mhm.

Stacie: through the program…

Chris: Mhm.

Stacie: and then that kind of started another iteration of me as a recording artist um which, which resulted in an in an actual, you know, EP that I created after grad school that was, you know, me sitting down at a piano and with chord progressions, and that's when I became a singer/songwriter, you know? Because I learned piano and learned guitar, and I was just writing and singing from my heart. And that's when I felt like I really started to kind of get back to that, to that question. It’s like; ‘No, I do this, because of the way it makes me feel.

Chris: That’s right.

Stacie: It's not that it's attached to, it doesn't have to be attached to this other thing of validation and adoration because I can heal that part of myself-psychologically, emotionally, energetically to recovery, um which is a big part of my story as well. So that journey to self-love and to find the divine to reconnect to the divine within me, right, allowed me to heal from this, this need to be validated by groups of people. So…

Chris: Yeah.

Stacie: that kind of changed my relationship to myself, it change my relationship to music.

Chris: Yeah.

Stacie: And so now it's like, yeah, I know that music is this thing that we all have within us, our…

Chris: Wow.

Stacie: creativity is this thing that we all have. So what music therapy helped me to do was to tap into that…

Chris: Mhm.

Stacie: true nature of that within myself…

Chris: Mhm.

Stacie: and then also to help to facilitate that awakening in other people.

Chris: Mhm.

Stacie: So it kind of decentered me, right?

Chris: Mhm.

Stacie: Because when I go in as a music therapist, I'm not it's not the Stasi Amon Show, right?

Chris: Yeah.

Stacie: I'm there to facilitate something. So I'm not performing.

Chris: Wow.

Stacie: Right?

Chris: Right.

Stacie: And so it isn't new. It wasn't new identity, it was a new way…

Chris: Right, right.

Stacie: of engaging in my own creativity in a way that is service centered…

Chris: Right.

Stacie: versus ego centered.

Chris: Wow, let's break that down a little bit more. Thank you, Stacie. So when Stacie, y'all for our listeners when Stacie mentioned music therapy, it's not ‘music is my therapy’, which it is. But it's actual practice called Music Therapy. For folks who don't quite know, and maybe this is the first time they're hearing the term ‘music therapy’, you have a whole master's degree for music therapy and a practice now for years around music therapy. It's just a high level bullet point. People are like; ‘Oh, what's that? I'm interested in learning more’? How would you describe what music therapy actually is?

Stacie: Yes, great question. So music therapy is actually a clinical modality. So it is the clinical application of music, the way you would use any kind of other modality talk therapy, for example, to address mental health concerns to address any kinds of abilities, disabilities, you know, autism spectrum, you know, people with dementia. So a number of populations and ailments can all be addressed by applying music as a clinical modality to address those issues. Um so that's more of the, you know, kind of textbook…

Chris: Textbook, yeah.

Stacie: definition of it.

Chris: Yeah.

Stacie: Um the, the nuance of it is, is that there are so many different kinds of music therapists because the programs are all wildly different.

Chris: That’s right.

Stacie: And we have different kinds of ways of um working with people. So you've got neurological music therapists that really get into the brain function of music, that actually measure the brain, for example, do…

Chris: Wow.

Stacie: MRIs…

Chris: Mhm.

Stacie: to see you know how music can affect the brain. So you have neurological music therapists, you've got music therapists, that specialize in working with uh babies. When I worked at the Children's Hospital, I played um music for the babies in the NICU unit, and actually was able to watch the monitors the vitals change as a result of my voice, and as a result of the, the, the music that I was playing. So, I could see it changing their, their vital signs. So you've got music therapists that work specifically with babies, you've got music therapists that…

Chris: Yeah.

Stacie: specialize on the you know, with the autism spectrum and working with kids. And um and then there's a lot of research of music therapy with dementia, and aging population and how music helps with memory recall. Um so there's so many different kinds of music therapy and music…

Chris: Yeah.

Stacie: therapists.

Chris: Yeah.

Stacie: Um I've kind of found my way and my, you know, not because I chose to I also really wanted to work with teens when I was in grad school…

Chris: Right.

Stacie: mainly because I still felt like a teenager myself, and I had this hip hop background. And I didn't go into grad school with the typical music therapy requirements, meaning I didn't play piano, I didn't play guitar, which were two of the main things you kind of had to do or one of the one of two. So for me, it was really about exploring how can I bring who I am into this practice into this, this new field?

Chris: Mhm.

Stacie: And I had great professors and, and guidance around that. So I really became this kind of has been rapper, right, music industry person that then was dropped to…

Chris: [inaudible 30:11].

Stacie: Oh, no, that was just true with me. I was washed up in there. I was only in my early 20s, it was already washed up. And I was like…

Chris: The game is crazy.

Stacie: I was like, how am I going to? But…

Chris: Yeah.

Stacie: instead of them seeing it that way, they were like; ‘No, there's you have a history that we're going to utilize help you survive’.

Chris: Absolutely.

Stacie: So, so…

Chris: Absolutely.

Stacie: real time music therapy and practice for me was your internship, you know, it's going to be at the psych hospital, you know? And I'm like; ‘What? I don’t want to work in a psych hospital’.

Chris: Yeah.

Stacie: I, I belonged in a psych hospital actually, at that time, you know? So I was like, I don't want to do this.

Chris: That’s real though, I understand.

Stacie: Yeah. And so they threw me in the psych place, and, and that's where I began to develop, you know, first impulse of what it is, for me to be a music therapist.

Chris: Mhm.

Stacie: And at that time, it was, you know, working with black men in the Bronx on a lock psych unit, and finding ways to utilize hip hop as a way to facilitate their expression…

Chris: Yeah.

Stacie: through drum circles. So that's what I wrote my thesis on. So that's what it wound up being, you know? It was like; ‘Oh, here's this part of me, that was a rapper, that's joining forces with this new…

Chris: Yeah.

Stacie: field, which really again, like I said, is the clinical application of music to any kind of so called malady’.

Chris: Yeah.

Stacie: So that's how I began in the field and began to work with, you know, mental health…

Chris: Yeah.

Stacie: and, you know, work with substance abuse, and, and that kind of thing. So, the other little definition I like to use is that music has this uncanny ability to bypass the ego, and our defense mechanisms.

Chris: Mmm.

Stacie: So when you think about music therapy, think about how you feel if you're being therapized…

Chris: Yeah.

Stacie: right? Like if someone's asking you a direct question about your mother or your father, and there's this kind of defense that goes up like.

Chris: Absolutely.

Stacie: But music, if I ask you to give me a song that reminds you of your mother, well, that's a different story.

Chris: That’s right.

Stacie: You know? You're going to, I'm going to have a different experience with you as a client, and you're going to have a different experience with me as a therapist, because now we're using this song as a…

Chris: Yeah.

Stacie: clinical tool to explore something deep with you…

Chris: Yeah.

Stacie: right? And it may actually uncover more than if you were to talk about it, because music accesses the unconscious.

Chris: Hmmm.

Stacie: So that’s…

Chris: Wow.

Stacie: the key. It accesses the unconscious whereas though talking doesn't.

Chris: That’s right. That's actually a great segue to curiosity I asked Stacie and I wonder what is your relationship to this because I will love to ask this question to you as a clinical musical therapist. So in Healing Center and Engagement and Flourish Agenda, as you know, Stacie, was part of our Art Space working group 2, 2½ years ago, with our work down in LA County. We know that Healings and Engagement is a non-clinical approach that builds off of clinical approaches, right?

Stacie: Yeah.

Chris: And a lot of our work, Flourish Agenda’s work, healing centered engagement, radical healing, comes from what we call Spirit work, comes from spirit, comes from the soul.

Stacie: Yeah.

Chris: And what you were talking about how music transcends into our unconscious, how much of what you would describe as spirit work in your clinical practice blends together, because I think a lot of folks kind of struggle with it, where it's either clinical, and it's evidence base, or it's not, but the not part, folks have a hard time tapping into. But you do it so well. So I wonder, what's your relationship with spirit in a way you go about your business as a therapist? How's the spirit shows up? How does the unconscious shows up for you? Yeah.

Stacie: I just love these questions, by the way. Um I really do. And, and, you know, I think it was probably around 2010 when I went into a sound and music facilitator training, which by the way, was at the open center. And I went into that training, because I liked what I had gotten at NYU; it was very clinical, right? It was…

Chris: Yeah.

Stacie: the foundations of being a music therapist, but I still wanted to know how music and why music made me feel the way I felt, which was more of a vibrational question, right? Like, so what about the sound healing part of this? So I did a sound healing training. And I think it was at that moment that I realized that I was kind of like wanting to be this urban shaman, right? Like that part of being a music therapist, for me, was very shamanistic. From the definition of shaman, leading people into non-ordinary reality, right?

Chris: Right.

Stacie: That's what a shaman does…

Chris: Right.

Stacie: carries you into non-ordinary reality to retrieve something, to heal something, and then so as below, you know, so as above so below. So whatever how happens in that non-ordinary reality translates on a physical material level, and the healing takes place. So, that was like, oh, yeah, that's totally what I'm interested in doing. And that's totally what's happening in the sessions, right? It also showed up when I was working at the Children's Hospital, which for me, it was more spirit than anything else. That that was totally spirit.

Chris: Yeah.

Stacie: Because I had the very difficult job of working with children on a bone marrow transplant unit um that were mostly, you know, the success rate in terms of who would survive from that was, was very, very low, and I did not want that job. So when I got that job, and this was at CHLA, right here in LA, you know, I remember getting the job and walking on the beach and saying, you know; ‘I don't want this job, spirit. If you want me to take this job, you have to tell me why’.

Chris: Right.

Stacie: I was like; ‘Every therapist I know has a limit. And they've and there's certain populations, you just don't touch’. So for me, children dying, that was the one.

Chris: That’s right.

Stacie: ‘Nope, not going to do it, can't do it, won't do it’. But then as I was on that beach walk, what I kind of downloaded, that's what they call it now; I didn't know what it was at the time, was really like kind of like my marching orders. And, and what I heard was very specific, I was told that; ‘My job was to go into those rooms, and hold the space with neutrality, that there was some divine order to what was happening, despite the terribleness of it all. And that I was to use music as the intermediary to facilitate a deeper spiritual understanding for the parents and the family of the sole decision that this child had made to become sick’. Now, that is heavy.

Chris: Whoo.

Stacie: That is what I heard my job was.

Chris: My goodness.

Stacie: And that's the only reason why I took that job.

Chris: Yeah.

Stacie: Because I was given such a clear directive of what my job was. And, and it said; ‘You are not to become sentimental. You are not to get caught in the human drama. Your job is to create a field, right, where the unthinkable situation that's happening is somehow facilitated, right’? I had no nothing to do with what the outcome of that looked like, I just had a job in that moment to be in that position and be in that role. And that's the story that I wrote about in the Music and Mind Anthology that just came out by Renee Fleming. Um it was my work at the Children's Hospital. So that, to me…

Chris: Wow.

Stacie: is an example of how it's all spirit. The clinical part for me was the foundation that was the toolkit, um it was important for me to understand that because I'm working with clinical goals. I'm working interdisciplinary with other clinical, you know, with doctors and, and nurses and staff. And so I have to be able to have that clinical training to know how to go, you know, beyond the surface at from a mental health perspective. Um if I'm using music as a way to facilitate mental health healing, I have to be able to process that as a therapist would whatever comes up. So I'm able to process therapeutically, I have the training for that. So the clinical piece is the training, it's the foundation. What happens in those rooms, though, that's all spirit.

Chris: Right. Right. Right. Right. Absolutely. And to share a little bit, thank you, Stacie. And I think that's so deep and, and, and resonates so much with me, right? Especially as a NICU baby myself, my goodness. We’re talking about Children's Hospital, and all of those relationships as a father myself-like that, that hits me deep, that hits me deep, right? As a social worker, um I am immensely thankful for everyone who works in children's hospitals all across the country all across the world. Because I couldn't do it, yo. I couldn't do it. I really couldn't. So, so Stacie, I hear you. I really do.

Stacie: And really quick, Chris…

Chris: Yeah.

Stacie: I know, I'm very transparent and I'm very honest. So…

Chris: Yeah.

Stacie: you know, that might be very triggering for some people what I just said, and I just…

Chris: Yeah.

Stacie: acknowledge that that may not fit in the belief systems…

Chris: Yeah.

Stacie: of, of many, many people, and I'm letting you know, it didn't fit in my belief system either.

Chris: Yeah.

Stacie: Right? But what I what I heard was basically, it's not your business, what's going on in there. Why the kid got sick? Why, how could this happen? You know, like, I was told to not get involved with the with that because that was like, above my pay grade so to speak…

Chris: Yeah.

Stacie: of why this horrible thing was happening. But they…

Chris: Yeah.

Stacie: but the job was for me to be there and hold the space with the music, you know…

Chris: Yeah.

Stacie: and to facilitate something there.

Chris: Yeah.

Stacie: You know? And so…

Chris: Absolutely.

Stacie: so I just want to clarify like you know…

Chris: Yeah.

Stacie: um that how that might be triggering for someone to think that…

Chris: Absolutely.

Stacie: that could something like that could be preordained. And I'm not saying it is, you know? But I had a job to do, and…

Chris: Absolutely.

Stacie: and I did it. And as soon as I had finished that job, that job ended. Like, I didn't stay there past 3 years.

Chris: Right.

Stacie: Like certain kids that I worked with, there were certain kids that transitioned…

Chris: Right.

Stacie: from the work that we did after the work we did, and I felt in my body and my heart when my job over there was done.

Chris: Yeah.

Stacie: And I moved on, you know?

Chris: Yeah.

Stacie: So, I just want to acknowledge that. I don't want to just drop something heavy like that, and…

Chris: Yeah, yeah.

Stacie: you know, not have some context.

Chris: That's the therapist in you. No, that's, that's, that's how you hold space, yo. That's how you can continue to close space, right? And I think when we have conversations like this, we name too; we can be triggering in our trainings, you all know. Most folks who have listened, have been in our workshop in some context, or taken our certification, we name things come up in healing work, right, in a lot of ways. And I think, as a social worker, myself, and social worker supervisor, I tell my staff here in Oakland, um just got to make sure your cup is filled so you could come back the next day, man, you know? Um and that's how…

Stacie: That’s true.

Chris: you continue to do this work, right? We, we, we know, and there's ways to be able to, to fill our cup, right? And we have to find those ways for sure. Now, I feel that. You know, Stacie, and for listeners, you know why it was so exciting to have Stacie agree to be on a podcast, through our partnership with the Department of Arts and Culture down in LA with RSA Collective, Stacie has held too many workshops, too many sessions for us and our artists down in Southern California. And both times yo, throughout the workshop after the workshop and after it’s done, weeks later, people have reached out and say; ‘Hey, by the way, do you have the contact information for I think her name was Stacie, the one who did the, the music therapy, that was amazing’. And we haven't really gotten that response from everybody else, not in that level. And I'm gonna be very honest and transparent. And it really I think Stacie speaks to the level of, of resonance that people have with music therapy and the way you hold space, right, the way you hold space. And that's just what the [inaudible 42:23] yo. But how do youth, how do teens respond to your music therapy? That must be incredible. Because you mentioned earlier, your inner child work. I don't know what age of the inner child you're talking about. But I know you have a desire to have worked with teens in the past and still do. How are teens responding to music therapy? How have you seen music therapy be able to create the conditions where healing can happen for young people?

Stacie: Yes. I mean, that's one of my favorite populations, of course, and I've done I've been really honored to do some great work. Even here in California, I used to work at a place called Engage. Um and that was pretty much for teens who were you know, lots of addictions, substance abuse, behavioral things. And the best part about working with teens, I think, is that they're still so connected to their creativity, right? So a lot of times when I work with people who are adults and myself-included, there's a lot of unpacking and sifting through that we have to do to get back to it. Again, my main theme I said earlier, giving ourselves permission to be expressive, giving ourselves permission to create. Um what's cool about teens is oftentimes that is already there, right? So it's just about giving them the space to create, the space to express, you know? And um my favorite way of working with teens is really through songs, uh because they're already communicating with one another through music and through songs. And sometimes the most validating new thing you can do sitting down with a teen, and by the way, you don't have to be a music therapist to do this, because I teach a lot of non-clinical um practitioners, right? Through UCLA Arts and Healing, um through many programs. I mostly teach actually, these days, people who are not uh clinicians, because because I ain’t about that gatekeeping. These are…

Chris: That’s right.

Stacie: things you can do

Chris: That’s right.

Stacie: with, with people without being a clinical um having a clinical license or whatever. Um so the most powerful you can do is sit down with the teen and ask them what they’re listening to. I mean, that's going to open up a whole conversation, you know? And actually, and a lot of times what they would say first is; ‘Oh you, you wouldn't understand’, you know, or ‘You're not gonna like it’, you know?

Chris: And how do you respond to that? Yeah.

Stacie: Oh, I'm always like; ‘No, I'm very interested. I'm…

Chris: Yeah.

Stacie: very curious’, you know? Like…

Chris: Yeah.

Stacie: ‘I would love to, I would love to know’. And so that's typically the first session. You know, we would do or they would just share the music and then I'd come back with the lyrics in the next session and say; ‘Hey, I listened and you know’, and then we'll do like a little song lyric analysis activity…

Chris: Ooh.

Stacie: you know, where, where we break down the music, and ‘what are the parts that you like? And why, why does this you know, what about this song speaks to you? What does it remind…

Chris: Yeah.

Stacie: you of’? And then…

Chris: Yeah.

Stacie: you know if it's a song where that clearly speaks to trauma or speaks to something that's happening within them, right? Because…

Chris: Yeah.

Stacie: because let's just be clear, like songs are reflections about…

Chris: [inaudible 45:24].

Stacie: the songs we liked, that we listen to, that we have an affinity for are some way connected to us. Whether it be psychologically, emotionally, um a lot of times it's unconscious, right? So, you know, songs are metaphors; they float around in our unconscious, that's how you can be walking down the street and start singing a song and you're like; ‘Why am I singing that song’?

Chris: Mhm.

Stacie: And if you were to stop and kind of unpack like what it is, it's almost always connected to something going on in your life. And there's been studies around…

Chris: That’s right.

Stacie: you know, called unconscious song recall. So we can use those songs.

Chris: Oh, is that why people just remember lyrics?

Stacie: Oh, yeah.

Chris: from previous years ago? Is that the science behind it?

Stacie: Mhm, yeah. And most of the time, if you just remember, if you're just remembering something, or if something just pops in…

Chris: Yeah.

Stacie: there's studies that say that there is something in that song connected to what's happening in the unconscious. Now, the reason why this is very interesting to therapists and music therapists, specifically, specifically myself, and why I teach it is because that's the whole point of psychology is to bring…

Chris: Yeah.

Stacie: the unconscious into the conscious.

Chris: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Stacie: And psychology goes through a whole lot of circles to try and get people to, you know, uncover something that's in the unconscious.

Chris: Yeah.

Stacie: Whereas though a song can do it instantaneously, instantly. If I ask you, what's the first song you think of when you think about your father to go back to that rock from earlier, and you come up with Papa was a Rolling Stone? Well, that's all I need to know.

Chris: That’s all I need to know. I know.

Stacie: Right? Now, as a music therapist, I don't need to ask your history with your father, I don't need to go through all those therapeutic questions. No, I know now, so we use…

Chris: Yeah.

Stacie: the songs as an assessment tool, and specifically, specifically with teens, right? I can know kind of what's happening, I get a snapshot of what's going on…

Chris: Yeah.

Stacie: in that teen’s life by the songs or anybody's life, but going back to teens…

Chris: Wow.

Stacie: by the songs that they're presenting, you know? And then we can go even deeper with that by a sec, like I'm saying, looking at the lyrics of that song, beginning to unpack and, and explore.

Chris: Yeah.

Stacie: And, you know, and then if I'm working interdisciplinary, which I oftentimes do, then then we can bring in other team members and say; ‘You know, hey, I think there's something going on here, you know, with this’, right?

Chris: Yeah.

Stacie: Because this is the theme that these are the songs that they're bringing in, these are the themes, and we can…

Chris: Yeah.

Stacie: look at these themes and begin to see a pattern emerging. Um and then the last part of that, too, is, you know, songs give a person objectivity. So if it…

Chris: Tell me more.

Stacie: talking. Well, if you bring in a song and it’s…

Chris: Yeah.

Stacie: difficult content, or if I even bring in a song that, that for us to work with, because I may I may have gotten from our assessment that there may be some issues around self-esteem or self-worth or something, and then if we start talking about that song, and I say; ‘What's happening to the character in the song? What do you think this character might be feeling? What do you think this person is trying to say’?

Chris: Mhm.

Stacie: Then we're not talking about you anymore. Right? Now you have some objectivity. You're not, we're not saying; ‘So how do you feel’? And ‘what happened to you, and your mother or your father’?

Chris: Yeah.

Stacie: So we're looking at the character in the song, which gives the person a sense of, you know, freedom and neutrality, because you know, now that we can just discuss this character. And but at the same time, there are going to be elements of that conversation that are going to most certainly reflect on the person, right?

Chris: Mhm.

Stacie: And by the way, this happens, and this works with so many populations. Uh working with songs is my one of my favorite things to do. I'm actually working with veterans right now. As we speak, I have a program that I'm doing with a veterans um at the VA, uh which is amazing. Every week, we are working with um a curriculum that I wrote around The Hero's Journey…

Chris: Mhm.

Stacie: and using music as a way to validate the aspects of the hero. Um and that's been amazing because these vets are able to look at these different phases of The Hero's Journey, you know, Joseph Campbell's model. And um…

Chris: Mhm.

Stacie: and again, we're doing this what's happening with this character in the song, what made you choose this song, right? It's a very, very powerful way to validate a person.

Chris: Yeah.

Stacie: And, you know, and, and again, to help to uncover things from the unconscious, without, you know, triggering the defense mechanisms or without it feeling, um you know, like something like someone's being therapized.

Chris: Yeah, yeah absolutely.

Stacie: You know? And that's not a therapy group. By the way that's, that's a, that's a company. We call that a community group. So they're not doing therapy, um we're just using songs as a way to facilitate discussion. But again, what's always in the room? Spirits in the room.

Chris: Always in the room, absolutely.

Stacie: Spirits in the room; they're getting…

Chris: Absolutely.

Stacie: that validation. So um so that's one of my favorite interventions, and it works amazing with teens.

Chris: I love it.

Stacie: It works amazing with pretty much everyone.

Chris: I love it. And it's so applicable, right, in so many ways. And thank you for that breakdown, Stacie, because, you know, at Flourish, we get to question a lot, how do I apply healing centered engagement, right? Because we know and through a framework that Dr. Jin Raiko created, it's about a pivot in our environment; a way of life almost about how we go about things, right? The application of it, see, often very practical, and what you just broke down, right to be able to do things like ask you what they're listening to, as the start of a conversation, and really roll it out from there, right? So I love that breakdown. Thank you so much.

Stacie: Yeah, absolutely.

Chris: Yeah. Um so as we wrap up, here's geez almost been an hour. It's just crazy how time flies, when we're…

Stacie: Yeah.

Chris: having fun yo. Stacie, you're also a best-selling author. I mean, I can't get through every beautiful thing that you’ve done. You know, we've been here, we'll be here for a long, long time. But you're a best-selling author. So we'd love for you to share just a little bit about that. And then anything else you want to share, and then we'll, we'll close out here.

Stacie: Yeah, thank you so much for asking about that. Um I just wrote a workbook, it's called Choose Yourself; a 12-week journey to becoming the God of your own heart. And it really speaks to the question you asked about spirit.

Chris: Yeah.

Stacie: And to be honest with you, spirit is the most important thing in my life, I have a spiritual practice that I began um probably almost 15, 16 years ago.

Chris: Mhm.

Stacie: And one of the things that I've seen consistent in my own life, and in my clinical journey, as a therapist, is that you know, lasting change um results from a daily practice. Um I believe in daily practices, I believe in you know, courting oneself-the way we want others to court us. And um again, through my own personal journeys of healing my own relationships, um I decided to create this workbook, which is a combination, you know, of, again, my own experiences, but also the experiences I've had as a therapist in, you know, community centers and, and clinics and rehabs and substance abuse. And so it's 12 weeks of curated content um that touches on different subjects that are mindfulness subjects, working with the mind, how to navigate the emotions, how to set proper energetic boundaries, how to access your creativity. So each week, there's a new focus. And each week is supported with journal prompts and affirmations, as well as the um emphasis on having some kind of grounding meditation practice.

Chris: I see.

Stacie: And I wanted to support people in that by actually recording meditations, which are partially of what a big part of what I do in the sessions that I've had with Flourish, those mini workshops.

Chris: Mhm.

Stacie: There, they had this music kind of guitar uh meditation practice that I invented as a music therapist, which works with two chords, alternating um with certain verbal prompts and verbal scripts. So within the workbook, you have QR codes that connect to those meditations that you can listen and use to guide you…

Chris: That’s crazy.

Stacie: to help you build the spiritual practice to help you build the grounding practice. And it's only 5 minutes, you know, the first month. And then when you move into the second module, which is the second month, then we increase it to 10. And then by the time you get to the last module, that third month, you we increase it to 15. And the idea is that we want to build these daily devotional practices with ourselves by creating them in small increments, and building them into our day gradually. So you just start with 15 minutes a day, 5-minute meditation, 5-minute journal prompts, 5-minute evening reflection. And the other part is building a list of practices; like you were talking about filling your cup.

Chris: Yeah.

Stacie: There's a big part of the workbook that's about curating self-devotional practices. And the reason why they're not just self-care, is because the self-devotion comes from the fact that you're curating self-prac practices, based upon what your core needs are. So really look at, you know, and imagine how powerful this is for people like myself, who are so accustomed to giving…

Chris: Right.

Stacie: who're so accustomed to be holding space for others. So those of us who hold a lot of space for others, sometimes it's not so easy to identify what we need at…

Chris: Yeah.

Stacie: any given moment.

Chris: Yeah.

Stacie: So the workbook really encourages us to tap into our own needs, and curate self-devotional practices, that we can fill our cups…

Chris: Yeah.

Stacie: express ourselves every day. And the and the goal is to, again, to become the God of your own heart, which is to, to just really be in that place of ownership, of authority, feeling empowered, feeling confident, and strong. Because you know, when we're in that space, that's when we do our best giving, right? That's where we are the most in service because we're giving from the overflow, right?

Chris: Yeah.

Stacie: And not from that place of depletion.

Chris: Yeah.

Stacie: You know? Where so many of us find ourselves as teachers, healers, you know, caregivers.

Chris: 100%. I love that. And that's Choose Yourself yo; a 12 week journey to becoming the God of your own heart. Absolutely. Absolutely. Thank you so much, Stacie. Now as we wrap up, and I'll give you the final word of anything you want to share, we're gonna play a little rapid fire. So we're gonna switch it up just a little bit. We got about…

Stacie: Uh oh.

Chris: 5, 6 questions for you, you know? So, first thing that come to mind for you is like the response, right?

Stacie: Yeah.

Chris: What's the last record you played?

Stacie: Oh, the last record I played. See, I listen to my self-devotional uh playlist. Um well, the last record I play was um my, my meditation playlist. So probably some record on my meditation playlist.

Chris: I love it.

Stacie: I know it’s boring. It's not as like, you know, a specific.

Chris: No, that's where you at. That's a beautiful thing. That's a beautiful thing. Uh you mentioned Eric Sermon. Shout out to Eric Sermon.

Stacie: Hey Eric.

Chris: Hey, what's your favorite EPMD record?

Stacie: Oh, you get asked to chill.

Chris: Yeah, I was about to say the same thing. I was about the same thing.

Stacie: Yeah.

Chris: Favorite rapper is Tupac. So what's your favorite Tupac record?

Stacie: Um definitely, Dear Mama.

Chris: Yeah, I feel that. I feel that. You spent a lot of time in LA, but not all of your time. But from the LA perspective, tacos or burritos?

Stacie: Tacos, for sure.

Chris: Oh, yeah. See we, we hear. What's your favorite instrument to play now? Because you are multitalented, which instrument?

Stacie: My voice.

Chris: Oh, I wouldn't expect that; I love it. I love it. I love it.

Stacie: Because I'm the instrument.

Chris: Yeah, hear that. Um and then you already kind of touched on this. But what is your go to 1-minute healing practice?

Stacie: Oh, go to 1-minute healing practice is grounding.

Chris: Grounding.

Stacie: Sitting down…

Chris: Yeah.

Stacie: sitting down, feeling my feet on the floor, sending roots down to the center of the earth…

Chris: Yeah.

Stacie: And just letting it all go down into Mama Earth so she can take it and regenerate it and turn it into fertilizer for something else.

Chris: I love it. Love it. If that's not spirit work, I don't know what is yo. I love it, I love it, I love it. Stacie, before we close out, want to hold the mic for you; kind of a closing statement, closing recommendation for folks who are just on their healing path or their healing practitioner path, anything you want to share before we close out?

Stacie: I would just encourage everybody to become constant gardeners, meaning that there is no arrival, just keep on weeding the garden. Um if you find your mind, if you find yourself judging yourself, or shooting all over yourself, um then know that that's just the mind and that the mind doesn't know the difference between transformation and annihilation of one's heart. So the mind will always try and nitpick your transformation and try and manage it. Um so just know that it's the mind, come back into your heart, and just remember that you're in a process, you're in a practice and you're always unfolding, and there's no arrival point. Just being on the journey is enough.

Chris: Being on a journey is enough, yo. I can't say it better myself. Amanda, anything to, to close us out as well?
Amanda: No, thank you so much Stacie for being in space with us. It's always just so fruitful every time I'm in space with you.

Chris: Yes.
Amanda: So thank you so much for being here.

Stacie: Oh, thank you Amanda. This was so much fun. And thank you Chris.

Chris: I love it. I love it.

Stacie: I had a great time today.

Chris: Yes, yes. Thank you so much.
Amanda: Such a good time.

Chris: Thank you again Stacie for being here. And yo, that wraps up another episode of CARMA Chronicles podcast. Thank you so much for listening yo, thank you to our special guest; Stacie, who again, is a best-selling author, music therapist, musician, artist, teaching artists, you name it yo. We’ll link all of her work in our show notes in the bio as well, where you can find more of Stacie's work. And until next time, peace and love yo, together we flourish. Peace.

Stacie: Peace.